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Orion VII Hybrid and New Flyer Invero - Retirements and Rebuilds


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23 hours ago, Mike said:

The more Inveros taken off the streets the better!! Thanks for keeping track of everything. I understand from the forums here that the seat-padding issue on the new Nova's was actually a mistake made when they were ordered and that newer ones will have more padding or something?

I'm always amazed at how quiet the Nova's are for a non-electric bus (I'm also always surprised at how loud the Inveros are all the freakin time!).

Now if the next batch of 40' replacements were electric things would be looking really good for the city!

It's not guaranteed that the new Novas will have better padding but it's looking very likely considering OC Transpo realized their mistake.

The Novas are just not growing on me despite several rides on them. Inveros are much better buses in my opinion, with the exception of the rear doors and the general design.

List of Inveros retired: 

4201, 06, 07, 13, 14, 16, 19, 20, 23, 24, 25, 30, 31, 34, 35, 39, 40, 43, 44, 45, 46, 49, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 61, 63, 71 (first 4201-4273 batch) 30 retired out of 73 total

4276, 78, 80, 86, 87, 90, 94, 4303 (4274-4309 batch) 8 retired out of 35 total

4310, 15, 16, 18, 19, 26, 31, 38, 44, 46, 49, 52, 53, 54, 56, 60, 63, 64, 65, 68, 73, 76, 78, 79, 81, 82, 85, 88, 90, 4414, 17, 39 (4310-4439 batch) 32 in total retired out of ~131 total

46, 64, 73, 84, 88, 92, 94, 4505, 13, 19 (4440-4526 batch) 10 retired out of 87 total

80 total from all batches

Not a lot of 44xx (three from the third batch and seven from last batch) and 45xx retired. Most of 4417-4526 (bike rack equipped buses) are still in service.

I suspect OC Transpo may be trying to keep the bike rack buses in service as they are slightly newer. They are only retiring buses that need a lot of work to pass safety tests (info comes from another member of the CPTDB transit forum).

Edit: 4220, 4254, and 4319 added as retired

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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Good Day. To be reasonable (to the bus, not to OC-T), and as has been noted before, the Hybrids were properly tested on local, high stop-and-start local routes only. Key - only. When OC-T pu

Some updates on the 40 foot fleet: 77 Inveros (mostly from the 42xx-43xx series, with some 44xx-45xx mixed in as well) have been retired so far with five more to go. Will post retirement list lat

Wow. There's a lot to unpack here so I'll try to go through it point by point. True, gasoline has a relatively high energy density when compared to many things. Luckily, that is irrelevant to this con

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19 hours ago, Mike said:

The more Inveros taken off the streets the better!! Thanks for keeping track of everything. I understand from the forums here that the seat-padding issue on the new Nova's was actually a mistake made when they were ordered and that newer ones will have more padding or something?

I'm always amazed at how quiet the Nova's are for a non-electric bus (I'm also always surprised at how loud the Inveros are all the freakin time!).

Now if the next batch of 40' replacements were electric things would be looking really good for the city!

I agree but I highly doubt it would be electric.

Electrics will be even worse than we have with the current hybrids after a few years. Lithium ion technology is absolute garbage and very expensive for what we'd intend to use it for. This would confine it on local routes only since the majority of cross regional transit routes exceed well over 15 km even factoring in LRT.

Electric is the future, but we'll be revisiting the same problem we're having right now with the hybrids if we so choose to invest on inadequate fuel sources (lithium ion) with the next batch of 40 footers.

 

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On ‎8‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 11:20 AM, Loud-Invero said:

I agree but I highly doubt it would be electric.

Electrics will be even worse than we have with the current hybrids after a few years. Lithium ion technology is absolute garbage and very expensive for what we'd intend to use it for. This would confine it on local routes only since the majority of cross regional transit routes exceed well over 15 km even factoring in LRT.

Electric is the future, but we'll be revisiting the same problem we're having right now with the hybrids if we so choose to invest on inadequate fuel sources (lithium ion) with the next batch of 40 footers.

 

Literally none of what you wrote here is true. Please do some research before posting uninformed opinions.

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11 hours ago, Mike said:

Literally none of what you wrote here is true. Please do some research before posting uninformed opinions.

Gasoline has an higher energy density than Lithium Ion batteries. Electrics are slow to charge and would require stops to charge mid route to run a service like OC does, unless you had "super chargers" but that comes with the trade off of faster wear since you're cramming in more energy as the battery fast approaches full (which by the way, if you buy the cheap Tesla's or OC buy "cheap" buses, they'd artificially cap your battery). I'm pretty sure it's the batteries within the Hybrids that are failing/need replacement, which why we're even getting rid of them to begin with. Not sure since I think OC keeps vehicles that are outside warmed up by plugging in for the night to stay warm for an easy start up in the AM, but electrons have a harder time flowing when it's cold. If that's your WHOLE system of power, a battery, then I think it may cause additional issues for electric buses in the winter, particularly in start up. I'm not against them, what I'm against is buying crap at 1M+ dollars, which we all pay for, yet it's worse and has more trade offs than the diesel counterpart and will be scrapped/sold off after just 10 years because OC does not want to replace over 100 batteries.

How am I not correct on the cross regional Routes distance? 25, 34, 55, 63, 64, 74, and 75? Google maps measures well over 15km even factoring. LRT terminus of Blair, Hurdman and Tunney's respectively. 

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11 hours ago, Loud-Invero said:

Gasoline has an higher energy density than Lithium Ion batteries. Electrics are slow to charge and would require stops to charge mid route to run a service like OC does, unless you had "super chargers" but that comes with the trade off of faster wear since you're cramming in more energy as the battery fast approaches full (which by the way, if you buy the cheap Tesla's or OC buy "cheap" buses, they'd artificially cap your battery). I'm pretty sure it's the batteries within the Hybrids that are failing/need replacement, which why we're even getting rid of them to begin with. Not sure since I think OC keeps vehicles that are outside warmed up by plugging in for the night to stay warm for an easy start up in the AM, but electrons have a harder time flowing when it's cold. If that's your WHOLE system of power, a battery, then I think it may cause additional issues for electric buses in the winter, particularly in start up. I'm not against them, what I'm against is buying crap at 1M+ dollars, which we all pay for, yet it's worse and has more trade offs than the diesel counterpart and will be scrapped/sold off after just 10 years because OC does not want to replace over 100 batteries.

How am I not correct on the cross regional Routes distance? 25, 34, 55, 63, 64, 74, and 75? Google maps measures well over 15km even factoring. LRT terminus of Blair, Hurdman and Tunney's respectively. 

Wow. There's a lot to unpack here so I'll try to go through it point by point. True, gasoline has a relatively high energy density when compared to many things. Luckily, that is irrelevant to this conversation since buses are big and have more than enough room for batteries (see here: https://www.proterra.com/vehicles/catalyst-electric-bus/). Electric vehicles are also relatively 'slow' to charge but again this is irrelevant since fully 2/3's of the bus fleet is idle in the depot for most of the day affording them ample opportunity to charge. OC Transpo's dispatch software also already includes the ability to account for charging needs of buses when scheduling them on routes so charging needs can be easily managed.

Supercharging doesn't cause "faster wear" per se, what it causes is a bit more heat which isn't good for batteries generally but modern battery packs have active thermal management which take away excess heat and thus very successfully mitigate that problem rendering the concern moot.

I have some ideas about why the Hybrids are being replaced but they are not material to fully electric buses and have no baring on this conversation. As for the current OC fleet spending nights outside, yes there are many buses that overnight outside in the cold. They are actually kept idling all night because diesel engines to not like to start when cold so a lot of fuel is wasted in the winter months just because the buses wouldn't start otherwise. Even still many cancellations in the winter are caused by buses that didn't start. Electric buses completely avoid these issues while reducing emissions, fuel consumption and increasing fleet reliability and dispatch availability.

Contrary to what you claimed, physics says that electrons actually flow better in the cold (superconductors anyone?) and it would not be difficult for OC to simply charge the buses outdoors overnight which solves two problems. What you are thinking of is that batteries do not like being cold, which is true, however as previously mentioned all modern electric buses have active thermal management of the battery packs thus eliminating this concern. Furthermore, by charging the buses overnight heat is generated which also helps to keep the pack warm.

I'll dispel another point you seem to believe which is that battery packs will die prematurely. Electric buses (and all electric vehicles for that matter) the battery packs are designed to last the life of the vehicle (up to around 20 years or so for industrial uses like buses) and are warrantied as such so even if a pack craps out (which would be very unlikely) the bus maker would be on the hook to replace it.

And finally no, you are not correct about the distances. OC Transpo buses travel much farther than 15 kms. 15 kms is nothing and even the worst electric vehicles will easily do a paltry 15km. In fact, currently some buses travel as far as 150km! This is not an issue either though as all battery electric buses currently on the market can easily cover such distances with a wide margin, some can even do over 400km to a charge which is well in excess of any typical OC Transpo route.

I should mention that these are all verifiable facts and that most major Canadian cities have committed to switching their fleets to battery-electric buses over the next decade. (https://globalnews.ca/news/5136476/edmonton-electric-bus-fleet/) Ottawa is lagging in this regard. Both Montreal (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/stm-stl-montreal-laval-electric-bus-purchase-1.4792790,) (with similar winter conditions as us) and Toronto (https://globalnews.ca/news/5345722/ttc-all-electric-buses-toronto/) are purchasing battery-electric buses en masse as part of their ongoing fleet replacements. Electric buses are now at the point of being drop-in replacements for diesel buses. The only thing holding the city back is outdated, incorrect, or misleading information about electric vehicles.

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To quote what John Manconi said "Be the leading edge, not the bleeding edge".

Electric buses are proven, and even in climates very similar to ours (looking at Montreal here). When we got the Hybrids, they were completely new. Yes, the batteries on the hybrids are one of the top problems with them, but they're also now a decade out of date.

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Might as well post an Invero rebuild list here while I'm at it for those of you not on CPTDB.

List credit goes to Enviro_1203 on CPTDB although the list will be slightly modified to be more specific as to how many from each order got rebuilt.

4201-4273: 4203, 4221, 4226, 4241, 4242, 4248, 4257, 4260, 4264, 4265, 4270, 4273

Total: 12

4274-4309: 4288, 4291, 4297, 4298, 4304

Total: 6

4310-4439: 4312, 4320, 4329, 4332, 4333, 4335, 4336, 4340, 4342, 4343, 4345, 4347, 4351, 4358,  4359, 4366, 4370, 4384, 4391, 4393, 4397, 4401, 4402, 4404, 4406, 4409, 4410, 4411, 4412, 4419, 4422, 4423, 4426, 4428

Total: 34

4440-4526: 4441, 4442, 4460, 4471, 4478, 4480, 4487, 4495, 4514, 4521

Total: 10

62 combined in total.

Only 31 unrefurbed 4201-4273 Inveroes are still in service out of 43 total currently in service including the 12 rebuilds. Better get pictures in while you can! This batch is getting wiped out relatively quickly so far.

22 unrebuilt 4274-4309 Inveros remain out of 27 units currently in service including the five rebuilds.

Only 65 unrebuilt 4310-4439 Inveros remain (out of 99 units currently still in service including 34 rebuilds) at this point. This particular batch is also getting weeded out quickly.

67 unrebuilt 4440-4526 Inveros remain out of 77 units currently in service including the rebuilds. 

I suspect that the 4201-4273 batch will completely be knocked out (except for the 12 rebuilt units) come 2020 as well as the 4274-4309 batch (except for the eight rebuilt units). 

Edited to make simpler to understand.

 

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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  • 4 weeks later...

Update on hybrids:

There is no set date for retirement afaik, but they will still be retiring after the line opens.

They will likely be staying in service for three more weeks as the parallel bus service is operating, but will most likely retire on Oct 5 at the latest.

On October 6, OC Transpo will release route changes which will get rid of the parallel bus service and only leave the LRT.

If you haven't gotten any photos or rides of hybrids, get them while you can. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The retirement of the Orion VIIs has been pushed back to November. These will be gradually retired when the new LFSs come. There may be some hybrids that last into the December booking. They might even get to see the beginning of a new decade if we get lucky.

They're being temporarily kept in service past Oct. 6 as they're still needed for the time being.

Info comes from another CPTDB member.

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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A member of the CPTDB forum has mentioned that more Inveros will be pulled off starting next week. He also has a list (he will gradually post it later as Inveros retire) but he has mentioned that 4526 is one of the units that will be retired. #4526 is special because it is the last Invero to ever be built for OC or by New Flyer for that matter.

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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I know there are plenty of people who love and plenty who hate this bus. While I am mostly indifferent and don’t particularly hate the Invero, when given the choice I do avoid riding them. I’d much prefer anything else in the fleet to them. Do we have an idea of how many will be pulled starting next week over the short term?

Would it be safe to say that they may prioritize Invero retirements over Hybrids? The original numbers of buses  they were aiming to retire suggested the Hybrids only so would this be related to that or just lifecycle retirements?

The Inveros are the oldest buses operated in the fleet after all. The hybrids have batteries that need to be replaced. Crappy situation to be faced with on prioritizing which to retire first. 

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1 minute ago, Shane said:

I know there are plenty of people who love and plenty who hate this bus. While I am mostly indifferent and don’t particularly hate the Invero, when given the choice I do avoid riding them. I’d much prefer anything else in the fleet to them. Do we have an idea of how many will be pulled starting next week over the short term?

Would it be safe to say that they may prioritize Invero retirements over Hybrids? The original numbers of buses  they were aiming to retire suggested the Hybrids only so would this be related to that or just lifecycle retirements?

The Inveros are the oldest buses operated in the fleet after all. The hybrids have batteries that need to be replaced. Crappy situation to be faced with on prioritizing which to retire first. 

I actually like riding them although the design is still questionable. If I ran OC, I would have gotten neither the VII hybrid or the Invero. I would have just gotten OG Cummins ISL Orion VIIs (the NGs are basically just a facelifted version of the original VII with identical internals, similar to how our D60LFRs are facelifted D60LFs) instead of Inveros as those are way better.

I don't have any idea how many will be retired as of yet.

The hybrids have bad batteries and they need refurbishing on top of that. The Inveros don't seem to have any problems (minor sure, but major, not really) beyond the wear and tear that eventually comes with heavy use. I think OC Transpo may get rid of the hybrids first as they're smaller in number (only 169 left) over the 244 Inveros left. They've also had more problems with the hybrids so I can't see OC Transpo sticking with them any longer.

From what I know, the incoming Novas are now supposed to gradually replace the hybrids instead. At the same time, OC will be slowly retiring Inveros.

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4205, 4211, 4232, 4309, 4408 are now retired.

At this point, 34 out of 71 4203-4273 (4201-4202 were a separate order) units are now retired. We're basically at the halfway mark now. We only have 25 unrefurbished units left as well as 12 refurbished units in this series.

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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