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Orion VII Hybrid and New Flyer Invero - Retirements and Rebuilds


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The first mass retirement of the hybrids will begin soon.

There are around 30 hybrids parked right now. These are all being retired shortly. However, they're still in service for now, being kept as last resort buses until retirement. I don't have the list of hybrids being retired, although from what I recall reading on the other board, it's random. It's likely that three batches will have units retired. Up until now, only eight units have retired with the rest being in service. More will continue to be pulled off when the new order of LFSs come.

Same goes for Inveros. A bunch have been parked and will not see service again unless they're absolutely needed. I don't know how many are being retired but a total of 97 out of 326 have been retired so far. The Inveros continue to dwindle in number.

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Good Day. To be reasonable (to the bus, not to OC-T), and as has been noted before, the Hybrids were properly tested on local, high stop-and-start local routes only. Key - only. When OC-T pu

Some updates on the 40 foot fleet: 77 Inveros (mostly from the 42xx-43xx series, with some 44xx-45xx mixed in as well) have been retired so far with five more to go. Will post retirement list lat

Wow. There's a lot to unpack here so I'll try to go through it point by point. True, gasoline has a relatively high energy density when compared to many things. Luckily, that is irrelevant to this con

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4325, 4327, 4337, 4339, 4377, 4386, 4394, 4434, 4450, 4467, 4515 are now retired.

That's 103 Inveros retired now. 

Only 223 remain in service, 62 of which are rebuilt. If OC keeps going at this pace, we may see the majority of the non-rebuilt Inveros retired by the end of 2020 or so. The 62 that remain would last considerably longer since they just had refurbs. Considering rebuilds started in December 2014 and slowly continued (most rebuilds were done in 2016-2018 to make them last 18 years), they'd probably retire in 2023-2024ish.

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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  • 2 weeks later...

4209, 4237, 4268, 4269, 4277, 4317, 4328, 4369, 4431, 4466, 4468, 4517, 4520, and 4522 are now gone.

Now at 117 Inveroes retired and 209 left (147 of which were not rebuilt).

A total of 19 2007 4440-4526 Inveroes are now retired out of 87, making for a total of 68 now in service. 

A lot of the last batch have started being pulled recently, as last month, there were only 10 retired. Ten of this order were also rebuilt, leaving 58 unrebuilt.

38 out of 73 4201-4273 Inveros are retired. Only 35 remain in this batch, 12 of which were rebuilt and that leaves 23 unrebuilt.

47 out of 130 4309-4439 Inveros now retired. Only 83 remain in this batch, of which 34 were rebuilt, leaving 49 unrebuilt.

13 out of 36 4274-4309 Inveros are now retired. Only 23 remain in this batch, but six of them were rebuilt, leaving 17 unrebuilt.

 

 

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I guess a new month means the beginning of the hybrid Orion VII demise (according to CPTDB)...

5041, 44, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 54, 56, 57, 63, 67, 70, 71, 72, 79, 82, 84, 88, 98, 5101, 04, 07, 19, 20, 22, 27, 28, 30, 35, 36, 42, 44, 47, 48, 52, 56, 57, 58, 65 and 74 are all now removed from service.

That's 41 that have been pulled. Eight have already been pulled. That's close to 25% of the curent active hybrid fleet (169) right there, now reduced to 128 active.

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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4277, 4394, and 4431 have been brought out of retirement (in the case of 4277, it was planned to be retired but was never decommisionned).

Found this article: https://www.ottawamatters.com/local-news/city-of-ottawa-sees-more-buses-as-short-term-fix-for-chronic-lrt-and-bus-unreliability-issues-1823465?fbclid=IwAR0Lr_LiZA5vOQbF1Lu3yJxEzJCu63SeDYgW9HCMaAUZoDzOsqI1p1CXRdY

Forty retired Inveros (most of them will be the ones that retired recently) will go back in service to make up for the bus unreliability issues. 

If you ask me, OC Transpo did an extremely poor job of planning post LRT as far as bus reliability goes. They should have kept the remaining Inveros until the new LFSs start to come in, but look at them now. Some were not even retired for a week and they are being brought back. Only the valid MTO certified Inveros will be coming back. The first retirement Inveros are already at the scrapyard and are long gone at this point.

 

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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On 2019-11-01 at 6:17 PM, OC Transpo/STO Fan said:

f you ask me, OC Transpo did an extremely poor job of planning post LRT as far as bus reliability goes.

OC Transpo was, I believe, the only transit agency I know that sincerely believed that the LRT would reduce demand for buses because they were removing segments. However the premise was wrong as they still needed to maintain the frequency (which hasn't been done so far) and adjust to new passenger habits. It was a, to be polite, inadequate approach to planning.

Curious how long they will be able to get out of those buses as some of them already leak from the ceiling and other things, but if it helps alleviate and improve customer trust, it is a first step forward while waiting for new bus orders.

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12 hours ago, DavidBellerive said:

OC Transpo was, I believe, the only transit agency I know that sincerely believed that the LRT would reduce demand for buses because they were removing segments. However the premise was wrong as they still needed to maintain the frequency (which hasn't been done so far) and adjust to new passenger habits. It was a, to be polite, inadequate approach to planning.

Curious how long they will be able to get out of those buses as some of them already leak from the ceiling and other things, but if it helps alleviate and improve customer trust, it is a first step forward while waiting for new bus orders.

Some Inveros have originally been stripped down for retirement but put back into service later, such as 4277 for example.

It just recently got put back together.

4215, 4228, 4325, 4468 and 4515 got put back in service as well. They were all apparently already decommissioned but got work done to get them ready for service.

 

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Incredible turn of events. To see buses being put back into action after being retired (or seemingly now, unofficially retired) is quite the move to make. But it is good they are doing what they can to get things back on track.

I find it interesting that they are putting back into service Inveros rather than Hybrids which are newer (despite the issues they may face, such as requiring new batteries).

Are they targetting Inveros exclusively to put back into service or some hybrids as well. Or from the other point of view, continuing to retire hybrids and reinstating Inveros?

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2 hours ago, Shane said:

Incredible turn of events. To see buses being put back into action after being retired (or seemingly now, unofficially retired) is quite the move to make. But it is good they are doing what they can to get things back on track.

I find it interesting that they are putting back into service Inveros rather than Hybrids which are newer (despite the issues they may face, such as requiring new batteries).

Are they targetting Inveros exclusively to put back into service or some hybrids as well. Or from the other point of view, continuing to retire hybrids and reinstating Inveros?

The 41 retired hybrids will not be coming back into service due to expired MTO certificates. There are 128 currently in service, so I think they may just hold on a bit longer until new LFSs come. Once they come, OC will start gradually pulling the hybrids out.

All buses (Inveros) that are to come back are still valid for MTO. I think almost all Inveros retired in October 2019 will be coming back into service at some point. The ones retired earlier will not make it back into service. They're already at the junkyard.

In Ottawa, we don't usually see buses coming back from retirement. The only other time this happened was when GM New Look 8122 was retired in late 2001 to St. Laurent garage, yet it was fully rebuilt in 2002-2003 (painting it into the leaf livery) and put back into service.

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1 hour ago, Shane said:

How long is the MTO certification still valid on those buses?

8122 was the GM Artic right? Or was that 8222?

I am actually not sure about the MTO, sorry. 

8122 was a New Look, not the GM articulated bus. For some reason, that specific bus got retired in 2001, yet it came back after. One interesting thing about this bus is that it was the only fishbowl in the maple leaf livery to still have black OC Transpo lettering at the front. 8122 also was the only fishbowl to have a chrome front bumper instead of the regular silver one.

Here's a photo of it retired:

47AC46A5-CD33-4787-8A26-0629BC1642C2.jpeg

Another photo of it in 2006 after being rebuilt (note the chrome bumper):

D0252263-0EE3-4C3D-963F-6C4E0FD654DD.jpeg

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8222 was originally brought from Hamilton Street Railway in '99, rebuilt and repainted into the leaf livery that same year, and periodically entered service until '02 when it was decided the bus was more trouble to keep in service than it was worth.

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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@Shane @DavidBellerive

If bringing back 40 buses was not enough to compensate for the poorly executed fleet plan post LRT, OC Transpo is now calling on other Canadian agencies to lease buses or possibly even purchase a few for permanent use (first time they've done this in a really long time).

The TTC has been selling off a few of their 79xx OG Cummins ISL 2006 Orion VIIs to another agency (most units in that batch are actually used for training for some reason) so I think they may possibly loan some for the time being considering OC has purchased from the TTC in the past. 

If they're looking to purchase, OC may try to opt for buses that already have similar specifications to their own buses to keep the parts as standard as possible. For example, the TTC's hybrid NG Orion VIIs are identical to ours and their original style diesel Orion VIIs have an EPA 2004 ISL and B400R5, just like our Inveros. STO would not be a great candidate in this case seeing as they have only LFSs and even those have different mechanical specs from our own. I don't know if they will consider leasing from the STM.

If they're just looking to lease, I don't think they will particularly care about how similar those buses are to their own.

Correct me if I am wrong, but OC had not brought anything that was not originally theirs except from TTC. I predict we'll be seeing TTC buses here soon. They've leased from STO in the 90s and STM in the late 1980s but I doubt that will happen.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-calling-cities-buses-1.5360635

Edited by OC Transpo/STO Fan
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Another example of buses being brought in from other cities, the ex-TTC Orion Ikaruses.

To me a potential issue with this is equipping the buses with the standard OC Transpo setup, such as clever devices NSAS. Although as important as that system is, the need for buses is probably more critical.

The point about any bus model versus similar models to what OC currently operates, may come down to part availability. If the loaned bus breaks down, would they source the parts from say the TTC or the bus owner? Or would they prefer to have the parts on stock to do the work required quickly and with the least delay?

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Just now, Shane said:

Another example of buses being brought in from other cities, the ex-TTC Orion Ikaruses.

To me a potential issue with this is equipping the buses with the standard OC Transpo setup, such as clever devices NSAS. Although as important as that system is, the need for buses is probably more critical.

The point about any bus model versus similar models to what OC currently operates, may come down to part availability. If the loaned bus breaks down, would they source the parts from say the TTC or the bus owner? Or would they prefer to have the parts on stock to do the work required quickly and with the least delay?

TTC's buses have a next stop announcement system as well although they are not the same implementation as ours.

I think OC Transpo may possibly have some EPA 2004 ISL engines, D60LF headlights, and B400R transmissions in stock somewhere that were pulled from the early retired Inveros which could be an advantage if they happen to buy or loan TTC OG Orion VIIs (which use all those parts) for example. For the remainder of the parts, they'll probably go to TTC as they have parts in circulation.

If OC buys or loans hybrid NG VIIs from the TTC for whatever reason, they already have parts available for the TTC buses (except for the seats as those are actually identical to the seats from our Orion Vs). OC has retired 40 NGs already.

If they loan from someone else like STO and they get LFSs that have Voith or ZF transmissions, they'll probably just source the transmission in question from the transit agency who loaned the buses or possibly even the manufacturer of those buses. It does result in longer wait times for bus repairs depending on where the agency is located, but that's the only option they have.

I think that if they buy, they'll make sure to find a transit agency that has available buses and buses that are similar mechanically so that OC can get buses back on the road faster instead of waiting to receive parts.

 

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This is slightly old news but worth sharing.

According to someone on the CPTDB forum (who is an OC Transpo operator), it is confirmed that OC Transpo is continuing to maintain the remaining hybrids and retirement will be postponed until further notice. If they were to retire the hybrids if the Nova LFSs come in, they'd still be short buses.

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