O-Train Service Patterns, Frequencies and Travel Times

[J.OT13 109]

Shane's interview with Pat Scrimgeour gave us a better idea of what train frequencies will be post Stage 2. Big thanks to both of you for this informative video!

According to Mr. Scrimgeour, the Confederation Line service will be divided as follows if we use a 3 minute rush-hour frequency:

1. Trains heading west will split past Lincoln Fields, so a 3 minute frequency in the central section, Baseline and Moodie branches will be serviced every 6 minutes.
2. In the morning rush-hour, all Baseline bound trains will leave from Trim, while half the Moodie bound trains will leave from Trim. The other half of Moodie bound trains will leave from Blair. So trains every 3 minutes to Blair and every 4.5 minutes to Trim.
3. In the afternoon, all trains will head to Trim, so 3 minute frequency. 
4. Outside rush hour, all trains would start at Trim and split at Lincoln Fields. 
5. After 11 pm, Monday to Thursday, all trains from Trim will head to Baseline. Anyone heading to Moodie will transfer at Lincoln Fields to catch a "shuttle train" (similar to the Airport line). Frequency after 11 pm for both the main line and Moodie shuttle will run every 15 minutes.

 

Of the 36 trains, 30 or 32 would be in service with 4 to 6 "spares" on any given day at rush hour, roughly matching the current, not too successful, ratio. Hopefully, train reliability will improve by then. 

Edited March 26, 2020 by J.OT13

[lothianedge 0]

Sorry if this info is already posted, I've searched for it without success. Is there an indication of projected travel times on the line, not just end to end but between certain stations (e.g., Moodie to Bayview)? Thanks.

[J.OT13 109]

I remember City staff providing estimates during a meeting a while back. It might have been in February or March 2019. I seem to recall it was under an hour (53 minutes?) between Trim and Moodie, but don't quote me on that. At the time, they also provided estimated travel from each Confederation termini to downtown. 

I found a CTV article quoting estimated travel times to the airport:

Downtown-Airport: 40 minutes

Moodie-Airport: 50-60 minutes

Trim-Airport: 60 minutes

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/federal-government-commits-to-funding-lrt-stage-2-1.3461290

On SSP, someone recalls 50 minutes Trim to Moodie.

[J.OT13 109]

On 2020-07-21 at 8:17 AM, lothianedge said:

Sorry if this info is already posted, I've searched for it without success. Is there an indication of projected travel times on the line, not just end to end but between certain stations (e.g., Moodie to Bayview)? Thanks.

I've sent an email to the Stage 2 team requesting this information, and then-some:

Trim-Moodie

Blair-Moodie

Trim-Baseline

 

Moodie-Lincoln Fields

Baseline-Lincoln Fields

 

Bayview-Limebank

Bayview-South Keys

South Keys-Airport

 

Looking forward to their response. I'm a little disappointed this info hasn't been publicized yet. It would be a good way to gain public support. 

Edited July 23, 2020 by J.OT13

[lothianedge 0]

thanks, I appreciate it.

[DavidBellerive 111]

I also remember hearing the 53 minute end to end run time for Confederation Line. Curious to hear what the Stage 2 office will say given some of the reconfigurations seen along the Confederation Line. Nothing major, but can affect run times.

[J.OT13 109]

Wondering if we should rename this thread O-Train Service Patterns, Frequencies and Travel Times? Cover more ground. 

Travel time of 53 minutes from Trim to Moodie, if that's the case, is pretty good and competitive with driving, but beyond that, driving becomes the undisputed better option. Imagine someone who lives in Orleans and works in Kanata North (few and far between I'm sure, but I could see a fair amount of coop students making that journey), it will be about an hour from Trim to Eagleson, plus 15 minutes to Kanata North, and that's with a good bus network serving the area, which I'm not confident will ever happen.

Worse is the Canadian Tire Centre. Kanata's station spacing seems even tighter than the Stage 1, which means slow travel times. Someone coming from Trim might arrive at the hockey game or concert in an 1h15m at best. To make transit competitive, they would either need an express train system (probably not possible without a third track) or maintain the 400 series in the south end and east of Hurdman. It further shows the importance of moving the arena downtown. 

[Shane 186]

2 hours ago, J.OT13 said:

Wondering if we should rename this thread O-Train Service Patterns, Frequencies and Travel Times? Cover more ground. 

Good idea. Done!

[J.OT13 109]

Here's Stage 2's response (impressed with how quickly they replied this time around). Seems the estimates went up, which is not surprising after a year's experience with Stage 1. 

Quote

Thank you for writing to the Stage 2 Office.

Based on preliminary estimates, I’ve listed approximate travel times from the locations you’ve requested below. Please note these are preliminary and are subject to change based on future design efforts and further operational planning exercises (dwell times, etc).

• Trim-Moodie 61 mins
• Blair-Moodie 45 mins
• Trim-Baseline 55 mins
  

• Moodie-Lincoln Fields 12-13 mins
• Baseline-Lincoln Fields 8-9 mins
  

• Bayview-Limebank 37 mins
• Bayview-South Keys 25 mins
• South Keys-Airport 13 mins
  

Have a nice weekend.

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by J.OT13

[Shane 186]

This is great to know. Thank you @J.OT13. I will try to put together a short video that combines this new data and the portion of the Pat Scrimgeour interview on the topic this week. Nothing new but a nice little reference video.

Here are my takeaways... feel free to reference the O-Train Fans System Map here : https://map.otrainfans.ca/#11/45.3629/-75.6579/-30

• The runtime of 8-9 minutes between Lincoln Fields to Baseline as compared to 12-13 to Moodie is a little odd as it appears on the map as about half the distance and with only one station between (as opposed to three).
• We can also assume the run time from South Keys to Limebank as being about 12 minutes, which isn't bad for the distance, but again the Airport line being 12 minutes and half the length with only one station in between (as opposed to two). It could be to allow the trains to stage themselves for arrival into South Keys in between the mainline trains. So the travel time could be quick but the station dwell times could be what add the extra minutes to allow for the needed timing and spacing.
• I do find 61 minutes from East to West (Trim to Moodie) is good. That's about on par with the old Transitway outside of rush peak periods in ideal mid-day or lunch. In this instance, the downtown tunnel will make travel times reliable (within 5 minutes or so) no matter the weather and traffic in the core, compared to days gone by.

[J.OT13 109]

Since it was brought up several times, I asked the Stage 2 team a follow-up question; do the estimates include dwell times. Here's the response:

Quote

Hello

No they do not specifically include dwell times for the final destination (as customers will of course disembark upon arrival), nor do they include extended dwell times from terminus stations before a trip begins (for example, particularly during off-peak times, a train might remain at the platform with doors open for several minutes before departing on a scheduled trip). With that said, note these are very much averages/estimates and are likely to change.

Thank you.

[J.OT13 109]

On 2020-07-27 at 1:49 PM, Shane said:

This is great to know. Thank you @J.OT13. I will try to put together a short video that combines this new data and the portion of the Pat Scrimgeour interview on the topic this week. Nothing new but a nice little reference video.

Here are my takeaways... feel free to reference the O-Train Fans System Map here : https://map.otrainfans.ca/#11/45.3629/-75.6579/-30

• The runtime of 8-9 minutes between Lincoln Fields to Baseline as compared to 12-13 to Moodie is a little odd as it appears on the map as about half the distance and with only one station between (as opposed to three).
• We can also assume the run time from South Keys to Limebank as being about 12 minutes, which isn't bad for the distance, but again the Airport line being 12 minutes and half the length with only one station in between (as opposed to two). It could be to allow the trains to stage themselves for arrival into South Keys in between the mainline trains. So the travel time could be quick but the station dwell times could be what add the extra minutes to allow for the needed timing and spacing.
• I do find 61 minutes from East to West (Trim to Moodie) is good. That's about on par with the old Transitway outside of rush peak periods in ideal mid-day or lunch. In this instance, the downtown tunnel will make travel times reliable (within 5 minutes or so) no matter the weather and traffic in the core, compared to days gone by.

For Lincoln Fields vs Baseline, my theory is that the high number of complicated switches on the Baseline branch might slow down the trains. Even if that's the case, I'm not sure it would make that much of a disparity on speed. 

For the airport line, maybe they have to time the trains to complete the route in 12 minutes (or 13 I guess?) in order to synchronize with the main line's 12 minute frequency. In any case, this may result in a painfully slow ride. 

On east-west, I wish it could be a little bit faster. It comes out to an average of about 35 km/h, which is slow considering station spacing. I feel like we should hit 40 km/h at least, which is in line with Vancouver. Station spacing average on Confederation is 1.64 km while Expo and Millennium are both 1.5 km. Top operating speeds on Confederation is 105 km/h compared to Skytrains's 80 km/h. We do have more curves than Vancouver though. 

[occheetos 53]

I think it's worth bringing this nice graph up again (from here )

I have to say I'm still fairly skeptical about these times, but I'm impressed with how fast they've been responding to you.

Edited July 30, 2020 by occheetos

[J.OT13 109]

I'm also impressed with their response times. It used to be weeks or months. 

Hoping those estimates are very conservative and average speeds will be much closer to the graph. 

[occheetos 53]

To add a bit more confusion into the mix, here is a relevant excerpt of the project agreement: