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Phil

STO Tramway on Wellington or under Sparks?

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Hi fellow O Train fans.

Apparently a study showed that a tramway (streetcar) is needed to link Gatineau and Ottawa. To me, it has been a need for decades already.

However, I sincerely believe that this "G Train" has to go underground when it reaches Ottawa. I don't live in Gatineau, but I would also support a downtown Gatineau underground station that would serve the huge Federal Government complex across the river.

We took the pain to drill a tunnel to eliminate as many transit vehicles as we could from our downtown core. To me, the three underground downtown stations are an asset that Ottawa will never regret building. When you are there, you feel like you are in a modern city.

And it would be a shame to create new congestion with a tramway on Wellington. In the winter, some people would have to walk from or to Queen Street to get on the O Train.

It is already admitted that an underground connection to the O Train (at Lyon?) would be the best case scenario. There could still be a few number of buses that could cross between the cities.

We see how doing thing the cheapest way can come back to bite hard.

Even if it is more expensive, we owe this much to future generations.

http://www.sto.ca/index.php?id=87&L=en&tx_ttnews[backPid]=2&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=23983&cHash=

 

 

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I agree that on the 'surface' the best option of the two is underground under Sparks. This would allow connections to both Lyon and Parliament stations. It was stated that the intention would be to have the stations of both lines connect together to allow seemless or indoor transfers between. This would also allow additional entrances to the O-Train from Sparks Street, rather than only being on Queen.

There was concern before about Bayview being the main transfer station between both cities but now that the plan is becoming more firm on the location to transfer being in the main downtown core, the previous issues are very much negated.

Using Bayview would add even more people to the Confederation Line trying to come downtown for the last 2-3 stops, and again leaving in the PM peak period.

With the STO Line coming in at Lyon and Parliament, most people would already be at their destination, and those that were not and needed to make use of the O-Train would present very little issue to capacity as O-Train riders would be getting off downtown, leaving the trains mostly empty for STO riders needing to board. Same for the PM peak in reverse.

It's an exciting plan and would further enhance our two main downtown stations. Of course, lots of work still to do before any of this would be constructed and opened, but I would hope that the existing design of those stations could be incorporated into the STO stations, as if they are linked together, it would be better visually to have some consistency, rather than two vastly different looks from one end to another.

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6 hours ago, Phil said:

There could still be a few number of buses that could cross between the cities.

until the rapibus corridor is converted, buses will still be crossing, STO has said this before. Mainly the 200, some local Hull buses (don't think they stated which ones) and Tunney's routes (which i think are 18, 28, and 58). Not sure about the 400 though.

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15 hours ago, Shane said:

Using Bayview would add even more people to the Confederation Line trying to come downtown for the last 2-3 stops, and again leaving in the PM peak period.

With the STO Line coming in at Lyon and Parliament, most people would already be at their destination, and those that were not and needed to make use of the O-Train would present very little issue to capacity as O-Train riders would be getting off downtown, leaving the trains mostly empty for STO riders needing to board. Same for the PM peak in reverse.

It's an exciting plan and would further enhance our two main downtown stations. Of course, lots of work still to do before any of this would be constructed and opened, but I would hope that the existing design of those stations could be incorporated into the STO stations, as if they are linked together, it would be better visually to have some consistency, rather than two vastly different looks from one end to another.

True. Mayor Watson said that Bayview could not handle the traffic from the North, South, East and West. If I am not mistaken, there is a plan to extend the Trilium line further south, which would bring more transit riders to Bayview, with most of those riders likely to head East towards downtown and north to Gatineau.

I found the image I uploaded by accident, but it dates back to 2008. At the time, the plan was to use Bayview as a hub where trains can take people in the four directions. For that plan to work, Bayview arguably would have had to be build as big as Berri-UQAM in Montréal (three lines, four directions) because at rush hour it would otherwise overflow. Note that it would require a transfer to continue North, or South, depending which direction you came from.

Now for the Tram from Gatineau, do we rally need to transfer points (Lyon and Parliament) rather than just one at either of the two, preferably Lyon, the closest to Gatineau and stiil a much better scenario for transfer to the O Train than having the Streetcars on Wellington.

Ottawa-Gatineau Light Rail - December 2008.png

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One transfer between the STO tunnel and Confederation Line could probably suffice. Based on the layout, it seems it might be cheaper and easier to link at Lyon however, Parliament might be the better option in terms of passenger flow, and here's why; by the time the STO train arrives at Parliament, all Gatineau passengers will disembark, leaving an empty train for Ottawa passengers to board towards Gatineau. It might even be possible to implement a Spanish solution so that Ottawa passengers get on from a different platform than Gatineau passengers use to disembark.

If that transfer is at Lyon, Ottawa passengers will get onto a train that's half full and have to ride one station east before turning back towards the west, going through Lyon a second time.

Ideally, both Lyon and Parliament are linked to the STO tunnel for maximum convenience. 

 

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5 hours ago, J.OT13 said:

One transfer between the STO tunnel and Confederation Line could probably suffice. Based on the layout, it seems it might be cheaper and easier to link at Lyon however, Parliament might be the better option in terms of passenger flow, and here's why; by the time the STO train arrives at Parliament, all Gatineau passengers will disembark, leaving an empty train for Ottawa passengers to board towards Gatineau. It might even be possible to implement a Spanish solution so that Ottawa passengers get on from a different platform than Gatineau passengers use to disembark.

If that transfer is at Lyon, Ottawa passengers will get onto a train that's half full and have to ride one station east before turning back towards the west, going through Lyon a second time.

Ideally, both Lyon and Parliament are linked to the STO tunnel for maximum convenience. 

 

The spanish solution would be a great option, although I do not think there would be enough space under Queen Street to accomodate the additional space required, without impacting buildings above (in construction and structural support), as the tunnel would extend even more underneath the buildings, rather than mostly the street and sidewalk.

I do think it would be a great way to operate things. And the STO line in Ottawa being a terminus station could function with just one platform. The only risk is if the train gets disabled in station or on the way into the station, there would not be an additional platform to handle other trains until the situation was resolved.

I personally don't see an issue with a typical side two platform station located a block away with connecting corridors in between the STO and the OC Transpo station.

Overall, for this to work well and allow easy transfers, it needs to be underground and the stations connected.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-07-24 at 2:36 PM, J.OT13 said:

If that transfer is at Lyon, Ottawa passengers will get onto a train that's half full and have to ride one station east before turning back towards the west, going through Lyon a second time.

Like for an elevator, one usually waits for the car going in the direction they want. But yes, in hotels sometimes some people choose to go from the lobby to the garage before going up to their floor...

The two-station option is valid because it would allow Gatineau people to disembark where it is most convenient downtown (Lyon or Parliament). But if there's only a transfer at Lyon, it would be OK. The idea is to connect to the O TRain.

Lyon and Parliament are the stations that are the closest to each other on the Confederation Line if I am not mistaken. This means it would not be an extraordinary expense to have two underground stations for STO transfers since the length of the tunnel between the two is not extravagant. For the same reason, one could argue that there's no need for two stops for STO streetcars because of the short walking distance.

The whole thing ties up to what was previously mentioned in a post on this forum (I don't remember which thread): an underground network of corridors and passageways that would allow for the people working or shopping downtown to go from building to building without having to face the cold winter... like in Toronto and Montréal.

I really hope that the vision will also include an accessible and open downtown core.

 

Edited by Phil

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17 hours ago, Phil said:

Like for an elevator, one usually waits for the car going in the direction they want.

 

🤣I somehow hadn't thought of that. 

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